I think the reasoning here is a bit flawed. Sure prophets are human and can err. But if what they prophecy is in error it is not from God. Where did John the Baptist prophecy incorrectly? You wrote: "That desert prophet who announced the coming Messiah suffered from serious theological error. When people asked him how to be saved, he put them on a works trip. The apostle Paul even had to rebaptize converts confused by his misunderstanding of the Gospel." While I don't think John put them on a "works trip" it is helpful to remember that they were under the law. They were supposed to keep the law. In Acts 19 it says "1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all." It is not that John was wrong. He wasn't. Jesus's death and resurrection ushered in a new covenant. The Holy Spirit was not given to people until after Jesus rose from the dead. John did not preach the Gospel. He preached the coming of the Messiah. As for growing in correctness - I agree. People do learn and grow as they mature. However, prophets don't get practice time. When you prophecy it must be correct or it is not from God. It can't be excused with immaturity. John the Baptist prophesied correctly. When it comes to Ellen White and prophecying what would be considered prophecying. I can understand excusing the interpretation, but when she relates the actual words the angel spoke to her it reminds me of the text Galatians 1:8 "8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" An angel can preach a different gospel. For instance, ""I have seen in vision that tobacco was a filthy weed, and that it must be laid aside or given up. Said my accompanying angel, "If it is an idol, it is high time it was given up, and unless it is given up, the frown of God will be upon the one that uses it, and he cannot be sealed with the seal of the living God." {1BIO 224.2}" " I then saw a lack of cleanliness among Sabbath-keepers. I saw that God would have a clean and holy people, a people that He can delight in. I saw that the camp must be cleansed or the Lord would pass by and see the uncleanness of the children of Israel and would not go forth with their armies to battle, but would turn from them in displeasure and our enemies would triumph over us, and we left weak in shame and disgrace. I saw that God would not acknowledge an untidy and unclean person as a Christian. His frown was upon such. Our souls, bodies, and spirits are to be presented blameless by Jesus to His Father, and unless we are clean in person and pure in heart, we cannot be presented blameless to God. I saw that the houses of the saints should be kept tidy and neat from dirt and filth and all uncleanness. I saw that the house of God had been desecrated by the carelessness of parents, with their children, and by the untidiness and uncleanness there. I saw that these things should meet with an open rebuke, and if there was not a change immediately in some that profess the truth, in these things, they should be put out of the camp. {6MR 217.3}" If she was shown in vision things that are against the Gospel, then they are not from God.

I have learned so much from reading EGW but a frank discussion of her assertions that the New Earth will never have human children born upon has not happened without a great deal of defensiveness in SDA circles. This has always perplexed me..I know she was not always Sabbatarian, not always kosher in meat eating and not always righteousness by faith until after 1888. I am hoping her ideas of life for eternity without normal and holy relationships and relations on a new Planet Earth are another example of coming into present truth which simply outlived her ministry. What do you think?

As with everything else, William, I limit my beliefs to what Scripture teaches about heaven and the New Earth. Jesus said there wouldn't be marriage in heaven. Let's remember He was answering a question specifically about the legal contract between men and woman formed on earth, which will no longer be binding in heaven.- Martin

True prophets do sometimes give erroneous messages. Consider Nathan, who told David to go ahead and build the temple, but then had to reverse that message (2 Samuel 7:2-4). Nathan was a non-canonical prophet, meaning that he didn’t write any Scripture. Neither did Ellen White. Another non-canonical prophet was John the Baptist—and I’ll say again that he was not only erroneous but also legalistic. When people asked how to be saved, he gave them works to do. Paul had to rebaptize his legalistic converts, who hadn’t even known about the Holy Spirit (see Acts 19:2-5). Yet however imperfectly, John fulfilled his prophetic purpose of announcing the coming of Jesus--and so did Ellen White. Let’s remember that prophets are perfect for God’s purposes, not necessarily for ours. Sometimes (as with John the Baptist and Ellen White) God calls prophets who share the misconceptions of the people they are called to lead—otherwise people wouldn’t trust them enough to follow them. Then their messages mature with the movement, leading the people along. Like Jesus said, “I have many things to tell you but you can’t bear them now” (John 16:12). Revelation is a gradual process. As for Galatians 1:8, I don’t get my gospel from EGW but from the Bible. It’s true that the early EGW, like John, suffered from legalism. That’s why we look to Scripture alone to define the gospel.

You said “Consider Nathan, who told David to go ahead and build the temple, but then had to reverse that message (2 Samuel 7:2-4).”------------------------------ This is not similar to Ellen White at all. The angel directly told Ellen White a message. The angel is even quoted. In 2 Samuel 7 look at what it says “3 Nathan replied to the king, "Whatever you have in mind, go ahead and do it, for the LORD is with you." 4 That night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying: 5 "Go and tell my servant David, 'This is what the LORD says:…” Nathan did not prophesy when he told him to build the temple. Not everything that comes out of a prophet’s mouth is prophesying. Notice what the text says next. The word of the Lord came to Nathan that night. Nathan was wrong, but the message from the Lord was correct. The messages given to Ellen White were not correct. If Ellen White told someone to do something and was corrected by God that night I could see a comparison. --------------------------------------------- Where did people ask John the Baptist how to be saved? His message was not salvation, but one of repentance. Was he supposed to preach about the atoning sacrifice of Jesus when Jesus had not even started his ministry yet? He didn’t teach them about the Holy Spirit. Why would he? The Holy Spirit had not yet come. I see no comparison here to Ellen White either. John the Baptist was not filled with error. The people he was preaching to were supposed to obey the law. Jesus told people to obey the law too. John was under the old covenant. His hearers were under the old covenant. Jesus’ sacrifice ushered in a whole new covenant. Of course the people in Acts needed further instruction. A lot had happened. A lot had changed. What legalistic things did John tell people to do anyway? -------------------------------------- The biggest problem I have with this idea as well as many other Christians who know about Ellen White is that you must put down the Bible to lift up Ellen White. She was wrong. You have even admitted it. The Bible says that if an angel from heaven preaches a different gospel to not listen to them. You seem to be saying that we should pick and choose what to listen to and that the good things were from God and the things full of error were mistakes. Wouldn’t it be dangerous to recommend Ellen White as reading material when so much of it is anti-gospel? How would someone who is not grounded know what is error and what is not? ---------------------------------------- I’ve quoted Ellen White’s accompanying angel. I’m sure you see how it is anti-gospel. Why would it be okay for continued visions with this angel to be considered okay? This goes beyond human error here. The angel gave her information that was anti-gospel. Yet this accompanying angel continues to reveal things to her that are considered correct.

Amy, I think you are right about Nathan. As for John the Baptist, I believe you are mistaken. Actually he was ordained to “give knowledge of salvation.” Notice Luke 1:76-78: “And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God.” Yet John, a “prophet of the Most High,” taught legalism. After he warned the people about being cast into the fire, they asked what to do about it. John gave them works to do—good advice instead of the good news: “And the crowds asked him, ‘What then shall we do?’ And he answered them, ‘Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.’ Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, ‘Teacher, what shall we do?’ And he said to them, ‘Collect no more than you are authorized to do.’ Soldiers also asked him, ‘And we, what shall we do?’ And he said to them, ‘Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages’ (Luke 3:10-14). Again and again and again John the Baptist dispensed pure legalism in response to a salvation question. And remember, this was a prophet. How could this be? His work was non-canonical, so it was OK for him to be theologically immature. Remember that he shared misperceptions with the people God called him to lead—otherwise they would have rejected him. His work ordained to prepare people for the coming of Jesus. So was Ellen White. She also suffered from legalism, yet she was called by God to warn people to prepare for Jesus to come. Amy, let’s remember that neither John the Baptist nor EGW were called to write Scripture, like the apostle Paul was. Their work was to lead a movement, so their theology is a work in progress. So what do I do with what she says? I put the Berean test to it: I test everything that EGW wrote with Scripture. What fits, I accept. What doesn’t fit, I don’t accept as being for God’s people today. You see, then, I don’t put down the Bible down to pick up EGW. It’s the other way around for me—she is the lesser light to lead to the greater light of the Bible (her own words). Ultimately the only thing that matters is what the Bible teaches. That’s why I’m a Seventh-day Adventist, Amy. - Martin

What did Jesus say of John the Baptist? Luke 7 “24After John's messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27This is the one about whom it is written: " 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'[c] 28I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29(All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)” ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus called him more than a prophet! He didn’t err. He gave good advice to people asking what they should do. He gave knowledge of salvation because he heralded the Christ. Christ is our salvation. He wasn’t to preach the Gospel. The plan of salvation was not yet completed. You call John immature and full of legalism. Jesus calls him more than a prophet and the greatest of those born of women. ----------------------------------- Even if it was as you say and John the Baptist was full of error his prophesying was correct, right? The issue here is Ellen White’s prophesies that are full of error. I’m not talking about advice given to people, but direct revelations given to her. Where is the comparison in the Bible? -------------------------------------------------------------- You said Ellen White is the lesser light to lead to the greater light. Why do you need a lesser light full of error to lead to a greater light? Why not go to just the Word of God alone? ---------------------------------------------------------------- You didn’t answer my concerns about the angel and the quote I gave. The accompanying angel said things to Ellen White that were anti-gospel. According to Galatians that angel should be accursed and not listened to. Why are further revelations listened to and accepted as correct? Theological evolution can’t excuse this.

Good advice is not the good news of salvation. That’s the difference between law and grace, and John the Baptist didn’t seem to understand it—at least at first. He grew, just like EGW. God’s purpose in calling these people with their deep theological flaws is that the people they led shared the same deep theological flaws. Then God led both John the Baptist and EGW step by step in preparing those people for the coming of the Lord—John for Christ’s first coming and EGW for Christ’s second coming. Therefore I don’t consider the earlier John or EGW to be anti-gospel but rather pre-gospel. They grew! Call it theological evolution if you wish. Therefore Paul’s warning (Gal 1:8: if even an angel preaches a different gospel, let him be cursed) doesn’t apply to either John or EGW because both of them were taking God’s people along on a theological journey in fulfilling God’s purpose described above. Amy, since you believe in grace, please consider extending it to leadership prophets like EGW and John the Baptist. It's interesting to compare the spiritual dysfunctions of early Adventism with the "faith" families of the ancient patriarchs, going way back to father Abraham. If there ever was a marriage made in heaven, it was his son Isaac and Rebecca--yet they suffered the most dysfunctional family life. Wow--what a God working through such flawed people. And then there was King David's hyper testosterone level—and Jesus came to earth as Son of David. Awesome grace! God continued working in Christian history. Consider the classical Reformers, whose flawed shoulders we all stand upon. Luther laid down his anti-Semetic pen long enough to approve the killing of radical reformers, urged on by the gentle Melanchthon. John Calvin was nice—he only wanted to behead Michael Servetus, ala Osama. His Geneva colleague William Farel was determined to burn him at the stake. Nice guy! Yet God used them all. And he even uses us! Again, what a God. It's all about grace! And the same God who called Isaac/Rebecca/Jacob/Luther/Calvin/Farel also in sovereign grace called the early Adventist pioneers to promote pre-millennialism and other neglected truths. Yes, their eschatology (and other theology) was deeply confused and conflicted. And yet God used them to bring in certain fundamental beliefs that, refined through the years by the Gospel, shine with great beauty today. That’s why I’m a Seventh-day Adventist. A bonus: with our understanding of heaven, evil is not perpetuated through eternal hell. In Dale Ratzlaff’s eschatology, the screams of the damned will echo in our celestial ears throughout the ceaseless ages—unless God mercifully pushes the mute button so we can hear the angels sing. I'll take Ellen White's vision of heaven and the New Earth over that sad situation any day.

You are focusing on the person and their mistakes. Humans make mistakes. God can use anyone. I don't disagree with that. The issue here is the prophesying. Did John the Baptist prophesy incorrectly? Did Ellen White? ------------------------- Do you believe God revealed error to Ellen White when God cannot lie? You said the text in Galatians doesn't apply here. Galatians 1 says " 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" -----------------------------At what point would you consider this text to apply to a message from an angel? How can you take a text that specifically talks about this issue and say it doesn't apply? The angel wasn't pre-gospel. The Gospel was made plain in the days of the early church. The angel was wrong. The angel was anti-gospel. Do you believe God sent the angel that said this?---------------- "I have seen in vision that tobacco was a filthy weed, and that it must be laid aside or given up. Said my accompanying angel, "If it is an idol, it is high time it was given up, and unless it is given up, the frown of God will be upon the one that uses it, and he cannot be sealed with the seal of the living God." {1BIO 224.2}""

Amy, I’m enjoying our discussion. I think we agree that humans, including prohpets make mistakes and that’s OK. You ask whether John prophesied incorrectly. Actually, yes. In announcing the Messiah He confused the work Christ would do at His 2nd coming with what he would do at his first coming. He prophesied: “His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire” (Mat. 3:12). When his prediction failed and Jesus was healing the sick and cuddling children instead of chasing out the bad guys, John doubted whether Jesus was the Messiah: “Are you the coming one, or do we look for another?” (Mat. 11:3). Despite his failed prophecy and legalism, John was a true non-canonical prophet—just like Ellen White. The proof of their ministry was not that everything they said was worthy of inclusion in Scripture (obviously not) but that they faithfully (though in a flawed way) led God’s people to prepare for the coming of Christ—John the 1st coming; EGW the 2nd. Now, you refer to Paul’s warning in Galatians 1 about not permitting any gospel—even from an angel—except what Paul preached. Galatians is one of my favorite books, and this verse is one of my favorites in the book. I find in it a challenge and incentive to put everything to the Gospel test—everything I hear or read, write or speak. And that includes EGW—anything she says has to pass the test of the Scripture before I believe it—and it is only binding if it is found in Scripture. That said, I do need we need to grant theological grace to EGW and everyone else. We’ve talked about John the Baptist. Consider Martin Luther, who so magnificently establishes the Galatians 1:8 benchmark in his Commentary on Galatians (which was formative in my own life 30 years ago as I learned not to life under law but under grace). Yet Luther himself was a work in progress. His Commentary on Romans was written early in his theological journey—around 1517, if memory serves me. It has immature soteriology, even with tinges of residual Romanism. His breakout year theologically was around 1522, in my opinion. Only after his theology matured did he write his Commentary on Galatians with its magnificently mature theology. If you want more on this, Amy, please read my article: “Law of the Giants: Nomology in Luther vs. Calvin.” You can access it on this website: Click “Issues” and then “The Law” and look in the right column for the article. Bottom line: if we judge Luther on his own Galatians 1:8, he bears the curse of that very verse in his Commentary on Romans. But if we give him grace on his theological journey, he survives long enough to write the Commentary on Galatians. So I do put everything he writes to the Galatians 1:8 test before I will believe it. But in evaluating the man himself, I see him in the eyes of grace—given the fact that he was a true disciple on his twisted and tortured theological journey.

Martin, you seem to be ignoring the issue of Ellen's angel. Was her angel that preached a false gospel a sinless angel from God? Or was her angel a fallen angel (demon)?

John didn’t prophesy that Jesus would burn chaff at His first coming. He didn’t prophesy what would happen at the first coming or the second coming. What is incorrect in that prophecy? Because it hasn’t happened yet doesn’t make it incorrect. Because it is not fully understood by the prophet doesn’t make it incorrect. John’s prophesying is included in the canon. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, the warning of Galatians cannot be overlooked especially when we consider the angel. Putting EGW aside, my issue here is with the angel. An angel gave a message to Mohammed. An angel gave a message to Joseph Smith. At what point would that text apply to a message from an angel? --------------------------------------------------------- Luther or Calvin is not a comparison here. This wasn’t Ellen White studying her Bible and discovering more and more truth. An angel gave her messages. You say we should excuse the anti-gospel messages from the angel. Did Luther or Calvin reveal messages from angels? ------------------------------------------------------------- A supernatural being gave Ellen White a message, correct? The supernatural being told her things that were anti-gospel. They were totally works-based. Sure there are things said that would pass the test of Scripture, but is the revelation from God if any of it is anti-gospel? Can God lie?

Jeremy, I don't get my doctrine from an angel but from the Bible and the Bible alone. As for Ellen White, I believe that despite her flaws, she was faithful to God and God used her--just as all the people we've been talking about on this blog had flaws yet were faithful and God somehow used them. We are all a work in progress, imperfect not only in character but in theology. This doesn't mean we suffer God's curse in the earlier stages of our journey, when what we know and teach then doesn't measure up to what we learn and teach later. Let's have some grace here, even if you will for Ellen White.

John the Baptist clearly intended that his prophecy about Jesus overthrowing systemic wickedness would happen then and there—otherwise he would not have had such a crisis of belief in prison. Remember, he actually doubted that Jesus was the true Messiah. Jesus had to straighten out his theology and prophetic understanding by sending his disciples back with a corrective message. # Regarding angels, I think we’ve said enough about them. All these spiritual leaders we’ve been discussing had immature theology on their journey, including John the Baptist—clearly identified by Jesus as a prophet but just as clearly mistaken in his legalism and his prophetic understanding. Remember, an angel prophesied that John would be a messenger of salvation--yet there he was teaching legalism. Paul even had to rebaptize John's converts in Acts 19. Does that mean that the angel who endorsed John was a false messenger--a demon? I think not. Let's entertain the possibility that God had patience, understanding and grace for John the Baptist, Ellen White, and now all the rest of us.

You said “John the Baptist clearly intended that his prophecy about Jesus overthrowing systemic wickedness would happen then and there—otherwise he would not have had such a crisis of belief in prison.” ====================================What does it matther what he believed? Prophecy is from God and free from error. There was nothing wrong with his prophecy. I think you are comparing apples to oranges here. Prophecy, revelations in a vision, a “thus saith the Lord” are free from error if they are from God. A prophet’s interpretation of that vision or what they say when not prophesying is a different story. ========================================================== I am disappointed you aren’t addressing my concerns about the angel. I think it is crucial. It isn’t just about Ellen White here. If a supernatural being gives anti-gospel information how can future revelations be trusted? ====================================================== Immature theology doesn’t have anything to do with prophesying. Prophecy should be correct no matter what the maturity level is. What comes from God is free from error. ========================================================= The angel who endorsed John was from God. Jesus called John the Baptist more than a prophet. He called him greatest among women. John the Baptist taught people good things to do just as Jesus did. =================================================== Paul didn’t rebaptize anyone. There were 2 baptisms here that John the Baptist even prophesied about. Luke 3 says “16John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.” ============================================= See Acts 19 “ 1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.” This “rebaptism” that you refer to is not because John was theologically incorrect, but because the people had not yet received the Holy Spirit. ======================================================== But this is all besides the point. Even if John was incorrect, the prophecy from God was correct. Do you believe God gives prophecy that is wrong?

I'm choking over the characterization of John the Baptist as a legalist. Jesus was born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those who who under the law so they could be adopted as sons (Gal. 4:4-5). John the Baptist was the last of the OT prophets. Of course he was bound to the law! Jesus even told the disciples at the mount of Transfiguration not to tell anyone what they saw and heard until after his resurrection. Only then would the law and the prophets be superceded by the risen, fully victorious Jesus whose atonement (not just Whose sacrifice) was completely finished and sufficient. John the Baptist came to prepare the way for Jesus. He called people to repentance. He was not sent to teach "grace". He was called to present the One who would manifest grace. Paul repeats over and over (Romans 1; 3, 16, Galatians, etc) that the prophets foretold the coming of the new covenant, the administration of the gospel--but this foretelling was kept hidden until it was revealed in the finished work of Jesus and the formation of the church. John the Baptist was one of the "foretellers". His job was NEVER to reveal the "mystery of godliness, Christ in us, the hope of glory." That could not happen until after Jesus finished his work and made a new, living way to the Father. To compare John the Baptist with Ellen White—who had the full revelation of the finished work and the reality of the unassailable body of Christ available to her—is to misuse Scripture. To even ask the question whether John's angel is any different from Ellen's angel is actually horrifying to me. Ellen had all of Scripture in front of her. John the Baptist had a clear calling; prophecy even foretold him. He was not called to teach righteousness by faith. He was called to introduce the Person of the Lord Jesus. He did his job exactly as God ordained. Jesus IS the revelation of godliness. Ellen, who had Scripture, missed the most basic reality of all: Jesus' work is finished. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the final test; not a day. We can know we are saved! Colleen

Martin: Your reply was just a bit condescending. It suggests that my comments were not limited to Scripture. I believe it is written in Genesis that we were created in the image of God, male and female, for the purpose of replenishing the earth. I believe that would somehow have to apply to the New Earth as well. And in Isaiah 65: 17-23, a New Earth passage if there was ever one, the Lord speaks clearly of "offspring" "descendants" and children which will not be brought forth for trouble, as was the case after the Fall in Eden. You simply sidestepped this question, mentioning only the well known fact that the Saducces asked the wrong question of our Lord. They should have asked what WOULD male female relationships be like in heaven, with all things made new, including what we call marriage in our foggy sphere of comprehension, AND will the 7th commandment not be still in effect? Personally I think it will be as abiding as the 4th, the one we also read about in Isaiah 66. Don't retreat into orthodoxy, going no further than Ellen White was allowed to go. Orthodox defensiveness on this particular question, and the unwillingness to study it beyond the Saducees trick question and Jesus' enigmatic answer, are hard for me to understand, and I am an Adventist. Please try again.

So we agree that John was a genuine prophet, but we seem to disagree whether a prophet like him can be mistaken in theology. Well, let’s go back to the issue of salvation. John’s job description was: “You, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins” (Luke 1:76-77). So John was supposed to tell people how to find salvation and get their sins forgiven. And yet we find him, again and again giving people works to do. Four times in a row when asked what to do to escape the fires of punishment, John the prophet gave them works to do. Surely you guys who support Life Assurance Ministries know the difference between God’s Good News and good advice. Unquestionably John’s theology suffered from legalism. I don’t see how anyone who understands the Gospel can dispute that. # Now I’m not troubled by John’s theological growth because God called him to lead people who shared the same misconceptions, and they would have rejected their prophet if the message at that point had been mature. Same with Ellen White. The fact that her teaching suffered from legalism doesn’t disqualify her from being a prophet any more than it disqualified John, since both of them were leading a movement of people—not writing Scriptural doctrine. # You folks are very hard on EGW because she didn’t give clear teaching about the Holy Spirit until later in her ministry. (The people weren’t ready for that, so God didn’t open that truth to her.) And yet when I pointed out that John had the same insufficient teaching about the Holy Spirit, you insist that he was not theologically incorrect. Seems to me you’ve got a double standard there. # You guys keep wanting to talk about “Ellen White’s angel,” whether she lied about it. As I keep saying, Adventist theology doesn’t depend upon Ellen White. I believe all 28 SDA fundamental beliefs because I find them in the Bible. But anyway, let’s talk about whether Ellen White wasn’t always totally honest. Does that mean God couldn’t use her as a prophet? # Let’s think about some certified Biblical prophets who failed to tell the truth. Abraham lied (twice) about his wife Sarah, bringing great shame upon his calling. Isaac lied about his wife, too. Jacob, for whom Israel is named, was a legendary liar—and yet he gave one of the most sublime and important prophecies about the Messiah (Genesis 49:10). Then of course there was Jonah, who had real character issues as well as an apparently failed prophecy. # Many other examples can be given, all of which indicates that we had better not be too perfectionistic about prophets. # Noah had a dramatic prophecy fulfilled in the flood—after which he had a drunken episode (that even resulted in incest). Despite all that, “Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord” (Gen. 6:8). So since the prophet Noah had a problem with drinking, I’m not too upset if Ellen White had a problem with oysters. In fact, as far as I’m concerned, she could have eaten oysters with vinegar every morning, noon and night and that wouldn’t change my Adventist beliefs one bit. My hope is not in her perfection but in that of Jesus, our Lord and Savior. He is still Lord of the Sabbath, no matter what EGW did or didn’t do—or what you say or don’t say about her.

The fundamental issue here is not Ellen White or John the Baptist or any other prophet. But whether God can lie. Do you believe God would send an angel to lie to any prophet? This isn't about a prophet's life or theology, but about prophecy or direct revelation from God. Do you believe God gives prophecy or revelation that is wrong? -------------------------------------Please understand that I am NOT talking about a prophet's instruction, theology, mistakes, or errors. I am talking about the direct revelation from God - words spoken in prophecy or words from an angel like in Judges 6 "8that the LORD sent a prophet to the sons of Israel, and he said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'It was I who brought you up from Egypt and brought you out from the house of slavery.... 12The angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, "The LORD is with you, O valiant warrior."

Colleen, your post had similar concerns with that of Amy's regarding my view of John the Baptist. Please reference my answer to her listed above. # As to being sealed for salvation, I too rejoice in being sealed by God's Spirit as evidence of that we are accepted in Christ (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; Eph. 4:30). But do you think this means that believers are automatically once-saved, always-saved, never able to change their minds and forfeit their salvation? # I do see in the Bible another final seal (Rev. 7:3) that is future, in the context of earth's final crisis. I believe it is during that time, after the close of probation, when we are once-saved and always-saved without the possibility of being lost.

Could EGW misrepresent a angel’s message? She might do so unintentionally, as with the "shut door theory" in which she reported information about salvation that turned out not to be true (and which she later grew out of). Could EGW intentionally lie? I think I discussed that and showed that even Biblical prophets were not always paragons of honesty. # The bottom line here is that my faith is not in Ellen White but in Jesus Christ. I don’t derive my doctrinal beliefs from her writings but from the Word of God alone. No matter what she says or doesn’t say, Jesus Christ is still Lord of the Sabbath, still our High Priest in heaven’s sanctuary, and till our coming King who will take us to heaven.